Category: Let's talk
We were discussing this in quick notes and things really got out of hand. I said alot of things, and though I meant them all, I also said them without really explaining myself, so I'd like to do so here. Please, let's not turn this into a huge fight.
I don't understand the mentality of battered women. I was brought up by three very strong women, my mother, her partner and my grandmother. All taught me the value of self-respect, of standing up for what I believe in and for not tollerating any kind of abuse, be it physical or mental. And I'll admit that all of the abused women I've seen have been on talk shows and while it's true that you can never get to know anyone in half an hour or even an hour, the cases they make for themselves are pathetic. I'm not talking about the ones who are really seeking help. I mean the ones who refuse to leave their partners because they "love" them. It's the same story. He beats her or mentally abuses her and she just won't leave. I could understand in the very beginning, if it's mental abuse, why she'd want to try to help him or that she might think that with time, things will get better. But seeing them get worse should be a clear sign to end the relationship, doubly so if there are children involved. To me, these women seem very weak and have very low self-esteems. Now, there are countries in which this is the norm, so going to the police or family would accomplish nothing. These women are truly trapped and I feel bad for them. But in America, in 2008, there are all sorts of hotlines, support groups and help, if not from family, then from friends. So it just surprises me and frustrates me that these women truly think so low of themselves that they feel they deserve this or that it's normal. I didn't touch men because to me, them not going for help makes perfect sense, though it's sad. The women doing the abusing could always turn it around and make it look like they're being abused and there's a whole stereotype about men being abused by women. Nor am I touching homosexuals for the same reason. But why straight women don't speak up is truly a mystery to me. I understand the whole concept of a cycle of abuse from family, and that many come from different cultures, but I only get it logically and anthropologically. Emotionally, though, I'm at a dead end.
Just my thoughts. Feel free to reply or not.
"I'll admit
that all of the abused women I've seen have been on talk shows" just shows how little you understand the problem. I garantee there are women you've met who are in abusive relationships and you had no clue. God your stupid.
I agree with jared, and furthermore, do you even know what abused means? it doesn't have to be a battering that shows abuse.
Why do you think I wrote physical or mental, meaning verbal? I'm aware that there are different kinds of abuse.
I agree that some of them look weak. And I've even thought to myself while watching talk shows, how pathettic they are. But you have to understand the psychology behind it. It's not that they're weak, it's that they truly believe their partner is alright. With physical abuse, It's hard for me to understand why they stay. With mental abuse though, I can understand it. It's only when you get out of a relationship like that, that you can look back and really see how brainwashed you were.
Speaking from personal experience: If you tell yourself something often enough, or if you're told something often enough, and everything you experience points to the same thing, you'll start to believe it. Even if you know it's not really true, a part of you will still be completely convinced that it is, and that's the part you'll act on. I know it's hard to understand and frustrating to witness when a woman says 'but he only does it because I make him mad' or 'he's just having a hard time right now, it'll get better', but most of the time that's what they honestly believe. And sometimes, it's all they know of love and partnership and so they think things are the way they're supposed to be and this is what love's meant to be like. Maybe it makes them weak, maybe it makes them cowardly, whatever, but it does happen and it is real, and not everyone is raised by strong women who teach them self-respect and give them strength. And even if they are--I was--it's not always enough. You can't always just say 'oh, well, I'm strong enough and smart enough to know better and I'd get out of that situation if it ever came up'. Because when you actually find yourself in the middle of it, it probably won't be like that. If you get yourself into something like that, it's not likely to be something you can just pick up and walk away from whenever you feel like it--you'll keep coming back. And sure, a lot of women like that do have self-esteem issues, that's what makes them so easy to keep around. Tell them you love them, no one else will ever love them like you do, they won't be able to make it without you, and they'll never go anywhere. Like I said, just speaking from my own experiences, I'm sure it's different for others.
Thanks to the last two posters. I know it must've been difficult to bring personal experience into this, but I really appreciate your thoughts and honesty. Glad we could discuss this civilly.
There is a psychology to abusive relationships and it is more complex than just "but, I love him." If you really want some understanding on the subject, it’s a good idea to do some research on it. A person, man or woman may choose to stay in an abusive relationship for many reasons. Perhaps they might think the person will change, sometimes its fear of starting something new, other times it’s simply not knowing how to brake away from the abuse.
I think what you are having trouble understanding are those people who knowing that they are in an abusive relationship, choose to stay, even when they are provided with options and tools with which to stop their suffering.
There are so many reasons why people stay in these relationships, and they stay, even if they have had a good childhood, good role models, no abuse… And, they might only go through something like this once in their life, and then never again, having learned from the experience. In most cases however, it’s just a cycle, and the people going through it have no clue how to get out of it. As humans, we like patters and can get very comfortable with reoccurring themes in our lives, even if they are not the healthiest themes for us to live by.
Yes, those last paragraphs are certainly true. These are the people whom I can't understand, the ones who had it good, who have options, and who still choose the bad over the good.
In that case, think of yourself, and no matter how wonderful a person might be, if they were abusive, you would not stay in a relationship with them. Think about this and consider that you wouldn’t stay because you wouldn’t know how to stay, an abusive relationship would be totally alien to you, and living with abuse is something that you just don’t understand.
Now, imagine that all you know is abuse, it’s completely normal to you, so much so that if a relationship does not have abuse in it, you would question its validity.
In the same way that you don’t understand not leaving such a relationship, there are those who do not understand that relationships are not abusive.
To some, abuse is simply a part of life, it has always been, and it will always be, even in the year 2008, and even if they live in the US.
I used to be the first to criticise someone who wouldn't leave an abusive relationship, but, I know to a certain extent why they stay.
If you truely love a person, and by that, I mean, real love, you'll stay with them, no matter what. And I know you're asking the question, "how can you love someone who's abusing you in any way?" But it's perfectly possible. I don't know how to explain it, it's just the way love works. Your head might be telling you one thing, but your heart over rides that logic, and as something you cannot control, you're heart rules your head, and you go with that because it's easier and it's how you feel, not what you think and how you think you should feel, that matters.
I don't know if that makes sense, it's a difficult thing to explain
This has been a really interesting topic, and there have been some insightful posts. To OK Sure, I loved the way you wrote your answers. I have to admit to feeling like Tiff does, a lot of the time.
So, I have another question, kind of a spin-off to what Tiff asked. Again, I hope we can have a civil discussion, as it's been thus far. If my post sounds harsh, forgive me. I'm just emotional on this issue.
the one I've never been able to understand is why women with children stay in an abusive relationship, when the guy is abusing the children as well as her. If it's just yourself being harmed, that's one thing. IF you want to put up with that, it's your choice. But what about a child, who has no choice? Isn't part of being a parent to protect your child from harm? For example, a good friend of mine grew up being verbally and sexually abused by her father. Her Mom stayed in the relationship, though she knew the abuse was going on, and was being abused herself. Only after my friend and her siblings grew up and left home did the Mom grow the balls to leave the guy. Shouldn't that have been done years ago, when he was harming the children? Where was the maternal protectiveness in that?
Does the same logic apply that Chelsea and OK Sure wrote about? I would think that needing to protect your children would override some of that, but I could be wrong. What are your thoughts?
Thank you thank you thank you! That one is so beyond the pail for me that I don't even know where to begin with it. Anyone who'd harm a child or even a mentally retarded adult, to me, is inhuman. The only defence I've heard thus far (not here) on it is that the women afraid that the guy would kidnap or harm the children more if they left. I tell you one thing, and this I mean with all my heart and soul. If I had children and I ever found out that my man was harming them, I'd have no problem doing away with him for good, or at the very least, paralising him for life, and as an added bonus, a full castration if it was sexual. There's a huge difference, to me, between harming an adult and harming a child. The adult, whether she chooses to or not, can fight back. There's no way in hell that the child can do that even if she wanted to. Yes, there are cases of children speaking out and calling child services, but those are few and far between, and he/she must be old enough to be able to understand them.
As a survivor of child sexual abuse, neglect and physical abuse, I've been there, and I get it. Not only will the abused often get repeatedly abused, but the abuser has probably been abused.It's a very deadly vicious cycle, and let me just say it's not easy to break from. As a survivor, not a victim, I've had to overcome years-- most of my childhood in fact-- of emotional, physical and sexual abuse. And, if that's all you know, yes, you often gravitate towards those people and situations. And, the person who said you often question those people and situations that AREN'T abusive is correct. When I first met my husband, I was just waiting for the time when he would end his friendship-- and later, his dating relationship-- with me. I wondered if I would get a call from him saying he cheated on me, or if I would make him angry and he would hit me. I never found it, so I became more and more trusting, but that's taken 3 years of friendship and dating before I would marry him. We celebrated our 2 year anniversary together, and we're in it for the long haul. We have a son together, and both of us have broken the vicious circle of being abused as children. It's taken counseling, the love we share for one another, supportive friends and adoptive family, prayer and a life-long commitment to our marriage and child that have broken the cycle for us. I would also like to say that, actually people that have never been abused can become victims of abuse. People who are naive about abuse and what to look for in an abuser, can oftentimes be easy targets. Also, those that are educated on abuse, can sometimes be confused as well, and they may also find themselves in an abusive situation. By the way, this is a very good topic.
I believe fear is a huge factor. The women simply are afraid.
Tif, you wouldn't understand because you seem to have a strong will and self-esteem. The fact is, many women do not have such qualities.
To SunshineAndRain, you truly brought tears to my eyes. Your story was both sad and inspirational. Congradulations on breaking that cycle and I wish you many happy years with your family. Sounds like you've got a great one.
Wait a minute. I do not have to agree with margorp. Tiff, you are right. Some women do not know how to leave. I was exposed to sexual abuse very early from people. And that still brings me hard times with trusting guys especially. I have to like get to talk to them a lot and I do mean a lot. It's not easy to leave if you have been abused.
I have been physically and mentally too, and I've done that too to people. Because it's all I have ever known in my life as far as that goes. But I'm trying to not do that every day of my life. And it is an ongoing struggle.
The emotional scars it leaves forever, you can overcome, but that's where I get most of my insecurities from. Even if i do end up trusting, I get frightened every day of my life. And yet I still have the will to try and think to myself "Not everyone's like this," No matter how my head says yes they are, my heart is not rapped around that. This goes for friends as well as lovers. And yes, some women margorp do not have those qualities but it takes someone loving and tender natured to bring them or help them understand they are a good person.
No matter how persistent they have to be. Because that my dear is love.
And the my dear part is just me being nice. Dont' think nothing by that comment. Yes, I am learning to be much more nicer than this emotional abuse has taught me to be.
Wait margorp sorry I didn't rea that clearly. I do agree that women do not have self esteem issues. But even those women that do not have poor self esteem can very well get caught up in the trap of abuse.
no, it is do to poor self-esteme.
"no, it is do to poor self-esteem.
“As stated above, it certainly is not, someone with very healthy self esteem can fall into an abusive relationship. They might not always fall into the cycle, but they can definitely fall.
Sometimes a very strong willed person, with a healthy self esteem, may simply not know how to deal with an abusive relationship. So they will stay, they will try to rationalize their partners behavior, they might make excuses, they might try to help the person get better, but they will not leave.
We all live and learn. Perhaps at one point in our lives, we may all be susceptible to an abusive partner. But, as time passes, and we begin to recognize the signs of abuse, most of us choose not to stay with such a person. We learn that love, will not change anyone unless they want to change themselves, and that no matter how hard you try, no matter how much you show that you are there and will be there for them, they will always make excuses for their behavior, that is, if you have not done it for them; and one understands that before the relationship can continue, if it will continue, the person must change, or one must simply end things before they escalate. And, if one does not, they will only get worse.
First of All: Wow Brandi, You and your husband truly are people to be admired. I know it couldn't have been easy, but I wish there were more stories like yours.
This is a very personal topic for me. The circumstances of abuse in my childhood were a little different. I wasn't beaten black and blue and physically scarred, but I was hit hard enough, by both my parents, to make me realize that spanking children, in any sense of the word, is wrong, horrible, and accomplishes nothing but traumatization. The only time the physical stuff really got out of hand was during middle school, when my mom started taking a fancy to dragging me by my hair whenever she got frustrated.
That was also the period of time when she first started calling me a bitch, when I was about 12. The rest of the verbal abuse was from my father. For pretty much my whole life, I've been berated and belittled by him, and he threatened to kill me more than once.
This is where I applaud Alicia and Tiffanitsa. Because I don't care what the factors are. I don't care how much abuse you have or haven't experienced in your past. I don't care what your feelings are for the abuser or how much you think you can change him. When someone threatens or harms your child, for fuck's sake, some kind of maternal instinct should kick in, and you should realize that it's time to get the fuck outta dodge! I feel sorry for women that have low self-esteem, but only they can ultimately choose to overcome that. And when your child's life is at risk, something needs to give, right then and there. And no one should ever say that they don't have the means to leave an abusive situation. The means are there; you just have to fight like hell to find them, if not for yourself, then for your child!
Most of the stuff from my childhood has not been resolved. My parents, who used to wake me up in the middle of the night with their arguments and argue right in front of my friends when they were over, are still together. And it's quite possible that a part of me will always resent my mother for subjecting me to all the bullshit from my father, although I begged her many times to leave him. Of course, she's not completely blameless either.
Even though things have calmed down a lot, it sucks having to live with them while still having all these unresolved feelings. That's why I'm fighting like hell for a way out. And with the narrow-mindedness of a lot of my family, there's a chance that they will object to decisions in my life so much that I'll end up cutting ties with most of them completely. But I've got friends that are more like family than they've ever been, and I'm very grateful and happy for that.
I guess my opinion boils down to this: I realized at an early age that what was going on in my house was wrong and should not happen to anyone, so I would never put myself or my children in that situation. And that is part of the reason why I want to become a social worker, to protect children from growing up the way I did.
Namaste,
Becky
aww brandy i admire your story, i'm glad you were able to break the cycle and move on with your life and not let what happend stop you from being happy again. Takes a lot of strength and courage and not everyone has it.
for me it was my mom who was the abusive one, and not just physical one for the 3 out of 7 years i was living in canada, until i was taken into care. lol i'll admit some of it i deserved but then i'd get it because she was drunk or not taking her medication, or before she was diagnosed and it was worse and got out of hand. Cuz i wouldn't just take it, i'd fight back until CAS was called when i had bruises and a teacher saw them and blah blah blah. That then led me down a path of destruction getting into group homes and then kicked out, nearly arrested, put into foster care, all which i still sort of blame her for cuz she wasn't there for me at all, but i'm much better now and stronger, and i know now i don't need her in my life. I could go on but not going to about her, lol.
About abusive relationships: i agree with alex and chelsea. It's not about self esteem all the time, sometimes it might be but all cercumstances are different. But yes, when you love someone, you'll rationalizing and make excuses for them even if you don't know your really doing it. Nd if you were abused by someone, it might just be kind of normal for you like others have said. it is sad that children have to be in the middle and put at risk but there's lots of reasons they stay: like what if he doesn't hurt the children just her, or what if he threatened to kill them and meant it if she left, he could be the one with the means for taking care of the child and her for whatever reason, like it doesn't mean they should, but it's not so easy to leave is my point. It's really hard to say what's rite or wrong here cuz every situation is different. I guess you never really know unless your there, like really there, past of abuse or no past.
my dad used to beat my mom, thing is she used to beat him up too, but he never hurt me..like yeah he would say shit but i know he was just saying it cuz it's stuff all parents say at some point.
he doesn't hit my stepmom now thankfully..part of me thinks he's not really the type anyways but my mom would drive anyone to do something like that, i'm not saying what he did was rite, but she cheatedon on him and said and did all kinds of fucked up things. anyways even though i love my dad, i still wonder if it's his fault i like such jerks, or maybe it's just me, lol. My ex was really controling and the abusive type. like he never hit me cuz it was an online thing and we broke up rite before i had the chance to see him, but i've heard stories and knowing how he acted and the things he'd say wouldn't surprise me if he did. like don't know if it's true but he used to hit his ex..but point being i put up with his bs..looking back i don't know why, but yeah. I feel sort of stupid now for it, just glad i didn't get in as deep as i could have, would have been a lot worse of a situation. I just gotta be aware that i don't fall into a pattern for liking such guys in the future, cuz he was only like my second boyfriend.
my thoughts, or something
Hi, all. Becky, nice post, and I second the things you said. I'm sorry you grew up with the crap you did. I wish it hadn't happened. But the good news is, you're stronger now than you might have been otherwise. You paid a terrible price for that strength of will, as many abuse victims do. But I'm glad to hear the determination in your words.
I sometimes wonder what makes a victim of child abuse turn out the way they do. Some turn out like you, strong-willed, able to fight and stand for themselves and those they love. Others remain the victim well into adulthood, sometimes falling into more abusive relationships, because it's what they know. I wonder what makes one person go one way, and another go differently.
Some people never get over it and they harp on the issue.
i think alot of people have trouble talking about abuse so it kind of stays there. i agree with Margorp its hard to get over it doesnt take one day for something tramatic to go away it takes years.